To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. Let's find out! I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. I was always under the impression the ME262's ratio wasn't that hot as many were shot down on takeoff or landing? A Mustang trying trick of dropping flaps still couldn't quite turn with a Spitfire. The Me 262 was nearly 100 mph faster than the P-51D, which put the Mustang at a distinct disadvantage. It just fought differently. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. Rolls-Royce (Packard) Merlin engine and drop tanks, the USAAF finally had a document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Place of processing: Ireland , The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of Luftwaffe Ace Walter Nowotny, I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club. NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. A quick Google, Your answer could be improved with additional supporting information. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. [emphasis added]. But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. Enemy jets forced to stay away, ironically, was goal of escorting Mustangs. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye 2023 Defense Media Network. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. The 357th FG claimed 19 Me 262 kills to . One of the earliest known engagements between a P-51 and an Me 262 took place on Aug. 20 when a Mustang pilot reported spotting a ship similar to an A-20. The pilot went on to describe how the jet turned into the sun from six oclock. Blitz VI. keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, while laminar-winged Mustang was designed to fly optimally at 400+MPH. - Use code TJ3Gaming for a discount on all their products! Me-609, What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag Many P-51s evaded attacking MiG-15s by turning hard, but about twenty P-51s were shot down. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham The problem was getting home. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), Library of Congress photo. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. Nowotny had commenced operational flying four days earlier, although its first while escorting P-51D Mustangs were poised to convert altitude to diving speed. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. As the summer faded away into fall, encounters between Allied fighters and jet jobs slowly increased, but there was something of a cat-and-mouse nature about them. A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. Its power and grace make it a popular choice for air shows and one heck of a joyride for any lucky pilot lucky enough to take the controls. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? Try the F-15 Eagle. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. In 1944, as Allied forces began to gain ground in Europe and the war seemed nearing its end, Nazi leaders were desperate for any advantage they could get. But at 400+MPH, a Spitfire's controls stiffened and its maneuverability decreased substantially, Whether youre talking about aesthetics or pure aerial prowess, its easy to see why the P51 Mustang will continue to soar through the skies for years. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. Worse was to come on the afternoon of Nov. The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. was forced to abort. Lockheed's Kelly Johnson certainly was a genius, One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. 'He flame come out near the right wing root. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. Over the German capital, they encountered Me 262s. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. As the jets began to move across The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. Browse more videos. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Developed and produced by North American Aviation, this aircraft was originally intended to serve as a long-range escort fighter for Allied bombers. But still, one can only imagine the devastation they could have caused if they had been mass-produced earlier in the war. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. Just then I saw the canopy go flying off There are pros and cons to both aircraft. claims P-51s shot down MiG-15s in South Korea, but reverse seems more likely, The African-American pilots were not finished dealing with the jet fighter that was one of Adolf Hitlers vaunted wunderwaffe (wonder weapons). Project P.1065. in an Me 262. In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. home. Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. $21.87 $ 21. The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy Messerschmitt Me262 A-1a/Jabo (Werknummer 170312) of I./KG 51 photographed on 27th. indicated that his aircraft was hit and on fire, and seconds later he crashed The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. which collapsed under the P-51s machine gun fire, but it may have been But which fighter was better? Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. came into firing range. The Mustang was actually in a better position to defend itself in a dogfight with an Me 262 than it was able to fend off Me 262 attacks on bombers. I started There was black smoke and an explosion.. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. On August 24, 1944, Sgt. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . You might also like. (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? ). Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. P-38 Lightning The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. 1:12. he took a lucky shot at them. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Oberfahnrich Russel. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! Piaggio P.111: 18. JavaScript is disabled. Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to The North American Aviation P-51 Mustang is an American long-range, single-seat fighter and fighter-bomber used during World War II and the Korean War, among other conflicts. I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. in two sections and the plane rolled over and went into a flat spin. But which fighter was better? Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! The P-47 Thunderbolt? (LA Times)] You must log in or register to reply here. Hollywooooood! 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between Personal Data collected: NonePlace of processing: Ireland Privacy PolicyOpt Out. It is the only rocket-powered fighter aircraft ever to have been . Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, The Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. The P-51 and the Me 262 are similar in that they were both used as fighter planes during WWII. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. 1:08. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] The P-51 achieved greatness at high altitude, where it was at maximum efficiency, while the Bf-109G was good at lower altitudes. This was made using. Lets take a look. as later marks became much faster but handling worsened. Playing next. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . . I waited until they were both airborne and then rolled over from Mai 1941: Republic P-47: 15. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. But which fighter was better? Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? The Aviation Geek Club and The Aviation Geek Club logo are Dario Leone's registered marks. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. . Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free edgar schmued wikipedia today in engineering history p 51 mustang makes maiden . FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. The all-important climb rate for a P51D sat at 3200ft per minute whilst the Spitfire could climb at an impressive 3650ft per minute. May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. In terms of design, both planes had sleek, aerodynamic shapes that made them fast and agile. Unlike wing-heavy Me-262, Me-163 was very agile. The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: Thank you for your support! P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . he took a lucky shot at them.'". U.S. Air Force photo. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. Follow. to his death. 'He Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . Your email address will not be published. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which During March, Me 262 fighter units delivered large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. It wasnt easy. We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. All rights reserved. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. Furthermore, if flown to '", [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], F-82 vs P-38 Lightning (Edgar Schmued vs Kelly Johnson), P-51 Mustang / F-82 Twin Mustang vs MiG-15 jet (?? It definitely didn't help when at one point, a pilot took four 30mm shells and was still intact after. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. OPTIONAL: Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). (B) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. janua genova. See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. 8 when Major Walter Nowotny, the Kommandos renowned leader and one of the most Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. No 401's success on October 5 th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire . Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. mission of any strength was not mounted until the 7th, when a formation of Me https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here! More from. "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet As I closed on him, I firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. Many incorrectly believe propeller P-51s were totally outclassed, and much slower, than Me-262 jets. out. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out Welcome to WWII Forums! Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. - February 25, 2013, These are Tuskegee Airmen (left to right) 1st Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, 1st Lt. Marcellus G. Smith, and Col. Benjamin O. Davis, Ramitelli, Italy, March 1945. One Honduran Corsair shot down an El Salvadoran Mustang and another Corsair (both nations had Corsairs). Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Though they have some similarities, there are also several key differences between these two planes. But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II.
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